Awesome news

Strong believer in states rights and local control I see

Who here honestly thinks the MTA is a well run institution that makes sound decisions with its finances? Instead of imposing another “tax” on hard working people, why not address the $700 million plus that the MTA loses on fare evasion? What about people using ghost licenses places when crossing bridges and tunnels and avoiding tolls? And I could go on and on. The MTA should focus on the scofflaws that are using our subways, bridges and tunnels for free. People are fed up with government largess and the massive misuse of our tax dollars and Trump has taped into that. Maybe he won’t be able to change much. But you can bet our government would grow even more bloated and wasteful if Harris was elected. Here’s one guy praying Trump can undone absolutely everything Biden did.

The traffic has been materially better since congestion pricing. Oddly enough, even more so in Queens than in Manhattan. A month ago it would take 45+ minutes to make it to the Nassau border exiting the Midtown tunnel at 7-7:30 pm. It is now at least 15 minutes quicker. I don't care about politics; they all suck. This is just vindictive, not to mention the $600MM spent implementing it. Now, both parties are targeting inner-city "rich" people.

@sport - exactly
Traffic got materially better, the toll wasn't that much, but enough to eliminate toll shopping. Anyone who lives near previously untolled east river bridges can tell you it's a huge difference. Agreed we are in some bipartisan penalty box, too well off to get Dem love / too blue state to get GOP love.

@911 - you can agree with a policy but disagree with a process. Feds revoking approvals (another question is why NY even needs it) every time WH changes party is not a good precedent for business or local government planning. Also not great he is leaning into the criticism that he is behaving like a king. All cool until he revokes something you like.

It all depends on how rich you are and if you drive. I don't drive, rarely take a cab or go out of the city. Me and family walk or take subways. I do like less traffic but there are other costs to congestion which are coming soon.

Services prices - plumber, electrician, deliveries will all get more expensive. Businesses will lose some customers and many need to pay more to their employess, which will eventually lead to more empty store fronts (more homeless any one?) and loss of commerical real estate tax revenue. Essentially an additional indirect tax on real estate in Manhattan.

Potential forced job quitting for people who can only commute via car from a neighbohood far away from the subway to Manhattan neighborhood far from the subway and more govt support and social discontent.

Guess what NYC is going to do. Increase coop and condo taxes and further increase wasteful spending rather than keep low end of workers employed. If you are rich, you like the luxury of lower traffic. But for common person, it is a big burden.

And unlike some others on this forum, I have nothing against rich as I recognize that they pay most of NYC taxes. Without the top 1%, the city would be bankrupt with its out of control spending. I am just for common sense.

It would be much better to restrict Amazon deliveries to any residential address to no more than twice a week. They already have a concept of Amazon delivery day. Impose a fee on big food delivery companies (Doordash etc). People should walk out to pick up their food in core Manhattan. And may be open up 14th street to car traffic again. Charge Ubers/Lyfts more. And MTA revenue increase, actually enforce paying fare. And stop spending more on housing in hotels. But these wouldn't address environmentalists dreams.

>> Services prices - plumber, electrician, deliveries will all get more expensive.

This, and perhaps more of what you wrote, is faulty accounting. Yes, the service providers now pay $9 more and will pass on those costs one way or another. But on the flip side they spend 30 minutes less in traffic. They were already passing on the cost of those 30 minutes in one way or another. I imagine the costs they were passing on exceeds $18/hour.

A lot of this boils down to “I don’t care about the time savings, because I don’t value my time at $18/hour” or whatever the calculation may be. That’s nice that the value of your time is worthless, but we’ve got an economy to run, and it won’t run very well if we value time at $18/hour across the board.

But I’m a man of the peoples, so I get it. Let’s just get rid of the entire MTA, DOT, etc. and distribute the $10B of taxes subsidizing the subways, bridges, roads, etc. to the people. $1000 cash for every man, woman, and child! Travel times may suffer as everything crumbles its way back to the days of horses & buggies, but grannie’s got all the time in the world. Is it really fair to be taking $1000 out of her pocket just so you working stiffs can have the luxury of a short commute time?

So I was pretty skeptical of the administration being able to reverse this from a legal standpoint, and NY Times seems to be saying the same:

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/19/nyregion/trump-congestion-pricing.html?unlocked_article_code=1.yU4.6S-x.M9h8udkwq9hf&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

I personally find these idiotic attempts to exert powers you don’t have a waste of time. I guess they are useful for riling up mindless supporters? Biden’s “attempt” to “forgive” student debt is the biggest example from his administration that comes to mind.

There are some marginal behavioral changes, but doomsday scenarios, eg "businesses will lose some customers and many need to pay more to their employess, which will eventually lead to more empty store fronts (more homeless any one?) and loss of commerical real estate tax revenue" are easier to threaten for propaganda purposes than to actually observe. Which category of stores will lose so many customers ... who don't have $9 extra that day ... that they'll be forced out of business?

"if we value time at $18/hour across the board."

Its not $18 per hour. Its one time, $9 per day (let alone in context of an otherwise few+ hundred a day) and in exchange less hassle which is MasterCard.

re: did it actually help
theres a 3rd party website using Google Maps data which has been showing yes, at most crossings, it clearly has -

http://congestion-pricing-tracker.com

911 turbo, the problem with trying to catch the scofflaws who are fare evading is probably that a significant portion of them are cops.

300, every contractor I've talked to (and remember I have a listing that's in estate condition, so I'm regularly meeting contractors) has indeed appreciated the faster commute times coming in from Jersey.

>> Its not $18 per hour. Its one time, $9 per day (let alone in context of an otherwise few+ hundred a day) and in exchange less hassle which is MasterCard.

People are now paying $9 per day and saving 30 minutes per day in commute time. That puts the rate at $18 per hour of commute time saved.

I have not been to NY since it has been put in place, but everyone I regularly speak with there has been unanimous in their conclusion that it was having an effect that they appreciated; one harsh sceptic has admitted they have reversed their position.

@nada - Regarding doing things they don't have the power to do, we are all waiting to see whether the Supreme Court ultimately stops them the way it appropriately did with Biden's student loan forgiveness actions. We are in a whole new world where the courts are now fully politicized and the rule of law as we have traditionally known it is on life support.

So I looked up the exact details. It seems one only has to pay once a day regardless of the trips made that day. I was under the impression each time you enter the zone. That seems to only be true for Trucks. Not as punitive as I thought.

I am not sure how much time saving there eventually be as people start to take more ubers/cabs but for now there seems to be time savings.

I still think low income people from outer boroughs who don't have the option to work extra time are hit that $9 which is their lunch money.

https://portal.311.nyc.gov/article/?kanumber=KA-03612

@300 - the imagined low income people that will be hurt by any policy that helps society overall is a typical affliction of my side, the Dems.

This is a big reason our subway fares are laughably low by global standards, don't have distance/zone pricing, etc which certainly doesn't help their revenue and budget.

Being honest with ourselves, the slice of people that are "poor" enough to live in a transit desert outerborough, but well-off enough to own, maintain, gas up a car .. and find parking in Manhattan, BUT also too poor to pay a $9 toll is quite narrow.

No one wants to pay. Doesn't mean they can't.

You have a point. People like me will rarely interact with those as I don't have a doorman.

On MTA budget, fare beating and maintenace costs needs to be controlled. Of course, it is a good public policy to subsidize subway as long as Union construction is not doing it at 2/3x the cost of other large expensive cities.

-------
Being honest with ourselves, the slice of people that are "poor" enough to live in a transit desert outerborough, but well-off enough to own, maintain, gas up a car .. and find parking in Manhattan, BUT also too poor to pay a $9 toll is quite narrow.

"...the scofflaws who are fare evading is probably that a significant portion of them are cops. "

This. In spades. Yesterday @ lunchtime: a large cadillac SUV w/ Jersey plates, illegally parked on 60th St, bearing a "police" placard on the dashboard -- dubious looking badge-like logo without a town or department in it, no indication of which police department or issuing authority, or who it was issued to -- I've previously reported several NYC permits on cars where the licence plate did not match the plate on the placard. (but this was in the zone, so probably paid some congestion fee.).

For the low income, a discount program is available. But, the congestion fee is meant to reduce congestion across all incomes and people. If the social purpose of the fee is to raise taxes on the wealthy (which contains the built-in assumption that only the wealthy drive and park in the zone), then the easier method is to just directly tax the wealthy. If it's to reduce traffic, then it appears to be working (though a car service driver (not Uber/Lyft) I spoke to last week thinks that the numbers are skewed because of the season - he thinks April/May will be the better indicative months.

https://www.mta.info/tolls/congestion-relief-zone/discounts-exemptions/low-income-discount-plan

As for Federal vs State/City, I realized a while back that my earnings, safety, and quality of life is far more tied to local city govt, Alvin Bragg, state laws, and myself (no one is forcing me to live or do real estate business in NYC/NYS). So, I just watch how it plays out in DC and Federal courts.

Aaron, Thanks on the link to discount for low income. At least it is something. Given a lot of cash wages in NYC, after paying first 10 trips, the rest call it 10 trips are half off. $7 instead of $9 per day.

>People are now paying $9 per day and saving 30 minutes per day in commute time. That puts the rate at $18 per hour of commute time saved.

No, a commuter can spend only $9 per day. They may save 1 minute, 30 minutes, 1 hour, 2 hours per day.
They save $9 per day. *Per day* is the only division there is in the rate charged.

>we are all waiting to see whether the Supreme Court

How much is the rate per hour of waiting for the Supreme Court that the plumber should factor?

I find it interesting that groups who have been pushing Congestion On Purpose mandates for decades (like Transportation Alternatives) are now purporting to be against congestion. At the same time they are continuing to push congestion causing "improvements." This wasn't about congestion.

I have seen the reports of increased sale of Broadway tickets, etc. But every small retail business I have spoken with inside the zone has reported to me they are seeing a drop in customers.

For people who take buses into Manhattan I believe the reports their commute time has gone down. For people who still drive into the Congestion Zone, I believe the reports their commute time has gone down. But how come there hasn't been a single report about the commute times of people who used to drive in but now take public transportation?

I'm guessing because they are mostly horror stories of commutes doubling/tripling along with having to deal with terrible service , stress from worried about being attacked, etc

>I'm guessing because they are mostly horror stories

New York is not for everyone.

>stress from worried about being attacked

I mean, why even be a New Yorker?

Creating congestion on purspose is very true as in reduction in traffic lanes due to bikes lanes and shutting down double wide streets meant for traffic as in 14th street. But that is the anti-car, anti fossil fuel lobby in NYC who couldn't be concerned about practical matters.

Lol stress from being worried about being attacked. Gee what ever happened to 'Listen up bub I have been here since 1962 don't tell me about crime'? Pearl clutch much?

First of all it's 1960. 2nd of all I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about pantywaists like you 3rd of all I've been through things like the 1977 blackout standing in storefronts in Bushwick with shotguns holding off looters/arsonists and I'm less comfortable walking down 8th Avenue today.

To pretend people using mass transit in NYC aren't stressed out by crime is flat out moronic.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/nypd-increasing-police-presence-subway-system/story?id=117387893

PS anyone who thinks they can stomach partying with a bunch of OG NYC gansters can come to my birthday party Tuesday March 18th
party@utopiaguide.com

hmm - I may have to make a trip to NY for that. Interestingly, the date coincides with a need to be in NY because we have made the very difficult decision to part with our cabin on the Titanic. We just listed it. For those of you who know where it is, feel free to take the over or under on what I estimate our loss of capital is going to be where the line is 25%. I just followed nada's lead and got Mr. MCR a 3-year rental in a shiny condo right by his office where the lease begins March 15. That apartment that I love has tortured me with its existence for the past 7 years; it must go. Also, feel free to take the over or under on how long it will take to go into contract where the line is 9 mos.

30yrs, happy early birthday!

MCR, I’m sorry for your loss but happy for Mr. MCR’s gain. That said, I don’t appreciate the encroachment on my turf driving up my rents.

FWIW, I have no clue on the over/under for your place. Not a market I follow, so it’s hard for me to tell.

Photos look nice MCR.

I like the kitchen very much! Was it like that when you bought it, or is that your doing?

No - we redid EVERYTHING. Kitchen, baths, floors, windows, PTACs, built-ins, closets, took down wall between kitchen and anachronistic entry sitting room. The reno was $550K and has barely been lived in. :(

Well, LMK if you’re going to actually going to be in NYC that week and are up for the proverbial poker night. We’ll use the opportunity to complain about you leaving your beloved apt for that horrible shiny condo Mr. MCR must be adoring.

>>> For those of you who know where it is

Could you please give me a clue? Aside from "Sutton Place"

>No - we redid EVERYTHING. Kitchen, baths, floors, windows, PTACs, built-ins, closets, took down wall between kitchen and anachronistic entry sitting room. The reno was $550K and has barely been lived in. :(

Just think about it as an investment to burnish your rep.

Here: https://streeteasy.com/building/the-excelsior/34g

Lovely place - and nicely appointed.

Because I know nothing about real estate: is that about average pp square foot for maintenance.

Very funny Rinette. This was gross consumption, but at least it supported the economy.

For those who are wondering what apartment it is, look for a recently listed 2/2 in the Beekman Place cul-de-sac that has a backgammon set in one of the photos. The stagers removed all traces of us except backgammon set and the club chairs on either side of it in the office.

@nada - I will email you offline. Mr. MCR is quite excited about the shiny new condo with the health club quality gym, and I will use the occasion to lament the loss I feel at giving up my dream of living in New York. It is the end of an era as I move the bulk of the furniture from my beloved Beekman Place apartment to a cottage on a fake lake in a flyover state for the foreseeable future.

Tip of the iceberg

OK, that sounds more like it for maintenance. That seemed crazy high.

Sorry the NY place didn't work out for you...What a handsome old building. Agree about the kitchen - the mirrored counter is a clever touch, the way it reflects the herringbone floors.

Hey, NY isn't going anywhere and hopefully the new condo affords you continued opportunities for observing NYC streetlife and enjoying a little nightlife and culture from time to time.

Btw - I do not see our place going for more than $1,450,000, but, as was the case when we sold our last apartment, the agent said the apartment was worth more than we think it is; hence the considerably higher list price. The agents with the last apartment were right and got us a price significantly above what we would have taken. I will be amazed if lightning strikes twice.

Thanks MTH - that's the plan. That old building really is special. The board, under its current excellent president, is going to do a 100-year anniversary book. If those walls could talk. And there are still quite a few characters. The penthouse resident is literally one hundred years old; she has been in the building 50+ years, and her story alone is a book unto itself. Same with a few of the other longtime residents who are in their late 80's.

Very nice place and great location about 10 blocks from me :-)

@MCR - lovely reno work on your place!!

It's interesting benchmarking relative 2025 pricing, by comparison a resale condo in N BK would go for similar but with maybe 10% less sq ft, though half the monthlies. Which is pretty crazy to me having moved to N BK for affordability reasons!

Thanks all for the nice comments about the apartment. I am going to look for the thread on Yentle's apartment to update the group on the progress of the listing so this thread can get back to its original topic.

So, about the congestion on purpose followed by purported anti-congestion initiative, I think all the initiatives can be grouped as anti-congestion to the extent New York is trying to head the way of some of the European cities George discussed in one of the threads where private cars are heavily disincentived (not sure that is a word), and the whole city becomes more geared to pedestrians. I don't pretend to know what that trajectory looks like for Manhattan's economy or for its small businesses, but as a tourist, I am all for it. Not sure if any of you have ever been to Mackinac Island, but it is the only "car free" society I have experienced, and I'm not going to lie, I liked it!

I think its one of those typical situations of activists pushing for a dream utopia that is not attainable and the reactionaries defending a bad status quo.

European cities restrict car access in the inner ring BUT, are contained within countries that are dramatically less car dependent than the US. Cars, gas in general were already taxes & restricted in various ways as it was. And you can actually get places, quickly, reliably by regional rail.

Manhattan unfortunately is in the middle of the US where as soon as you leave the 5 boroughs (or really like 1.5? - Manhattan & select parts of QNS/BK) .. you gotta have a car.

Manhattan, 99% of people have no need for a car except to leave the city. Even then in my experience its like a bell curve where the bottom end don't have a car, upper middle get weekend cars, and then the top top end Uber/get driven instead of owning. So taxing private cars more than uber rides is in a way regressive tax policy.

Anecdata but even in yuppie N BK, my condo is 10-15% trust funders. Zero of them own cars. Nor do the 20-something studio/1BR renters. But 75% of the mid-30s+ working couples have cars.

So in that context, while I am supportive of congestion pricing I wish it came with more immediate improvements to transit, or believable plans that transit will ever improve.

And I completely understand much of the pushback, even if part of it is against the concept of car restriction more than the reality of THESE car restrictions. That is - people are getting worked up because they think NYC is coming for their car in BK/QNS next. AND, even for me, it does add to an overall vibe of NYC living getting more inconvenient & annoying before it gets better.

>the agent said the apartment was worth more than we think it is;

Do you take crypto?

On a side note on my wanderings around town on my observations I am seeing more frequent use of Uber/Lyft cars. I'm not sure if this a sign of an improving economy or just the overall switching over from cabs.

https://www.amny.com/news/nyc-yellow-cab-trips-up-since-congestion-pricing/

@30yrs - amny is a revelation. So nice to see a webiste that features news. The NY Times is mostly shrill advocacy at this point.

Cuomo in the lead for Mayor?

I think Trump is still breaking things.

Cuomo has a lot of name recognition, but a lot of enemies too. (one example: look at how the NY Post is going after him).

It would absolutely not shock me at all if Cuomo wins given how dysfunctional NYC is. The choice of candidates is pretty pathetic. The voters get what they deserve.

"My mama used to say America's a melting pot ... when you bring it to a boil, all the scum rises to the top." ~ Bobbie in 'Down By Law'